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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.24 11:41:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 24/12/2009 11:47:13
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 24/12/2009 11:42:59
AFK cloakers are there for a reason.
more often then not it's not a buzzard or bomber but a recon.
anyone that done some pvp and lived in a nbsi knows that any hostile in local is to be considered a threat. POINT. no exceptions. any other behavior leads to losses.
i can give you a number of scenarios whenre the afk cloaker can be dangeros even in systems with a relative high populatins. ( ok think about a 3 systems route between 2 pupulated system with an inbetween system with an afk cloaker in it) you cannot go with a hauler there, beacuse you can never know when he gonna decloak an kill it.)
it's ridicoulous in systems where you have alot of peoples 1 man to effectivly deny small number operations. i mean i want to go from point a to be to transport 15k of loot i shouldnt need an escort in the systems my alliance is in.
i'd much rather have 15-20-200 bs camping the station or whatever. i can fight them. a cloaker will decide when to fight. and that's fine but most of them will pick easy targets. no afk cloaker honor there or anything, no real pvpers ther either , thay just pick soft targets. PVP advocates ( and real pvp-ers ) in general will agree that it's just greifing there.
someone sugested making a gang
making a gang for what ? sit in sytem ... and ? wait till he get's up ? see the gang and leave computer again ?
imho there should be probes with an extreme scan time like 5 minutes per scan.... if it's afk you will find it. if it's not there's no way he will get cought. simple there fixed it.
someone said in real world you have submarines... they can be found actually , and no crew cant just sit an watch **** there's allways someone guarding the radar and the sonar. otherwise any afk crew of a submarine will just find'emselfs in heaven very fast. not so with afkers.
it's just broken.
later edit: it's usually a hard task for an alliance to securise a piece of space but that's wat alliances do , we go there and make a 00 a safe place safe as we defend it. there is no posibile defence against cloakers. it's not right to be able to force alliances cram in systems just so players wont be ganked when they can actually defend that space if they have someone to fight. but you cat fight someone whi's not there.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.25 00:45:00 -
[2]
ok. first of all for all of you 0.0 local whiners let me say that.
0.0 isnt made to be safe. it's made to be made safe by alliances. either by sheer firepower
or by superiour tactics. look @ kings & rooks one triage carrier + 25 bs taking down 50+ bs
and multiple carriers.
now wether you like it or not isk making is part of the fighting process. some have empire
missioning alts, some just straight buy isk via selling plexes some straight buy isk.
SOME try to make isk within their well deserved space their allaice secured. by secured i
mean repelling any sizable forece that traied to invade that region/ constelation.
problem is ... that any cloaking afker can effectivly deny resource gathering operations in
any given system without any risk. Think like this. part of securing a piece of space is ment to be able to us cost effective ships in orther to hgather resources. this implies using marauders or other expensive ships in order to maximise proffit.
it's why we fought for that space why we repelled any intruder, why we form a fleet and obliterate anyone that traies to get there. OR we can be obliterated by a superriour force.
OH WAIT OH NOes 1 SINGLE MAN afk cloaker can single handed disrupt that. with no effort whatsoever ( yeah i CAN SEE THE ECHONIMOCAL REAL WORLD BENEFITS - +1 ACCOUNT PAYED ) so if he stays afk cloaked we aqve 2 options
- stop operations within that syatem
- run unviable economical ops - ie for any isk making process we get the ship that could run it and pvp escort.
issue is, it dosent have to do any effort in doing so.... not even play the game... just to pay the account and sit there afk.
everything within that game is ment to have an effort and knowledge associated with it. also most of the tactics usetd within have a counter method ( ok take tackling super-carriers and titans - you and have multiple small dictor bubbles but they can be smartbombed, and if it's a hic we talk about it can be neuted to hell and back)
afk cloaking is nothing like that as you have 3 options
- hope you will not get cought ( just pure chance actually ) - will get u killed
- not run oerations in that system - cloaker won - effectivly disrupt op within that system with no risk or effort involved
- run operations witha much lower yeld ( cloker won again since it have effectivly disrupt your resource gathering ops )
no matter how your vision of FAIR is that within the game this is beyond it as it is actually a russion roulette if you are not the afk cloaker.
last but not least. coming back to number 1. 0.0 is made so you can make it safe but it depends on you. no local advocates should simply understand the fact that some people movd there for good. no empire isk making alts and no buying isk. so you take a piece of space and make it safe. if anyones come there that die. OR if they use superiour tactics or firepower you are dead. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. i can remember a fleet of AF's with enough logi support ( made yes by triumvirate ) obliterating a fair number of bs's bc's and hac's of a fail alliance. still TRI played, they actually were thre, not downlaoding p o r n while denying outr allaince's gathering resources ops.
tl/dr
-no effort for disrupting resource gathering for an afk cloaker
-get even if unheard of posibility to scan afk cloaker ( e.g. 5 min scanning time for cloak probes )
well one corpmate of mine learned this the hard way ( k told him before NEVER RAT WHILE HOSTILE IS IN SYSTEM ) but it was just a buzzard reported long time before, never agressed anyone. neutral yes. what harm could he do ? after all he's been there for a week or so !!! allways on never harmed anyone. well he made a covert cyno and falcon and black ops jumped in. he lost a golem 1.5 bil + all in all. was he stupid ? no just inexperienced. and again should he followed my advice that ment no efficeinet rattin in that system while the afk cloaker decided to stay there.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.25 08:25:00 -
[3]
would you let me know exactly how would you know if a guy that's allmost all the time in system ( except downtime ) cloaked yes for weeks sometimes is afk or not ?
there's no way to know when he's gonna come out of afk and DO somthing.
by the way as you said someone not afk would not lit a cyno but someone not afk would not be afected by scan probes with 5 min timer would they ? so what's the problem ?
'fraid loosing posibility to be a jerk without lifting a finger ?
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.26 18:48:00 -
[4]
do you even hear what you say ? pay poeple to get me rid of the cloaker ? how ? do what ? he's afk. and cloaked.
pos warfere is already boring as it is, and noone likes it who would want to camp a cloaker for a week ? 24/7 no matter how much isk you'd pay.
people that blow up jf's in empire at least are there at computer pressing a buttion. and they do loose their ships.
cloaker on the other side just sits there.
and as i see it is an exploit. local is there for a reason an no matter how you take it it's a designed game mechanic. afk cloaking means just circumventing that.
imho ppl that complain about existence of local either buy isk either have highsec mission-farming alts. they shurley dont earn their existence in 0.0
some of us like to live in 0.0 and make it our home. would you like to know you maibe have an invisible killer in your dorm ? i very much like that if it's a killer in my dorm i can hit it with a bat. or at least he cant fall asleep while being invisible. sitting there for weeks at a time until at some point he decides to wake up and stab you in the back.
btw morons covert cynos cant be seen in system. do you even know what are you talking about ? what god damn probes are needed for them to find you in a belt ?
you adress the problem as i'm not doing anything to stop them but as long as i am online i cannot gather resources needed for actualy fighting someone i have to camp that cloaker or risk loosing my ship. is it ok for him to force doing that with 0 risk ? with 0 effort ?
give me 1 method i can track down a cloaker that sits afk for 6 days in row and i'll bow down to you. but you know there is none. so you babble about making fleets or hiering people or camping gates when in fact you do know for shure that none of this will work. he will just sit there until at a random moment ( for the others ofc ) he will decide to act and be shure it will be in he's advantage.
you talk about risk, but i take the concept of risk as a calculated risk. you cannot asses the risk of an afk cloaker. that's not risk it's randomness. and it only works against you.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.27 09:27:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 27/12/2009 09:34:48
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 27/12/2009 09:31:10
you are only adressing part of the problem that is convenient to you. maybe my posts have no redadability. or maybe you just misread them on purpuse.
TL;DR ---
i'm ok my systems being attacked
0.0 is made secure by my corp / alliance
i'm not ok attacker to be afk
if he's attacking he should be there at the computer
if he's cloaked 8 hours straight and tries to find a weakness it's ok then we have the thrill danger and all that.
if he's cloaked 6 days straight this means he's only there active and playing maybe 2-3 hours all in all.
TL;DR end ---
what i DEMAND is that my enemy is there and is actually doing all that crap interdicting warfare that you talk about. but he is not there. until 1 minute he is.
is it hard to understand that i want that enemy to PLAY the game if he wants to disrupt my operations ( in the way that i have to keep an eye on my back ) ? is that so much to ask ?
and none of you afk cloakers responded what would a 5 minute scan time probes do against a cloaker that's there at the computer playing the god damn game ?
with 0.0 as it si now an afk cloaker have no counter actually. ( CANS ? omg be serious ? space is BIG ) ever heard of warping to a ss BEFORE warping to a gate or an object of intrest ?
so you say you want MY game to be dangerous. so be it. i'm ok. what about cloaker's game ? having the ability to find him when he is afk wont change he's risk when he's not afk. just would remove a broken game mechnic.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.27 10:18:00 -
[6]
first well afk miners in empire we are on same page they should really be adressed yes.imho banning them one by one would be a good start.
as for the objects in space ... do you now propose also POSES to dispear when owner is not on-line ? but then again they are objects unable of independent thoughts. a warp disrupt bubble wont move on it's own.
as for scan probes with a 5 minutes scan timmer hill'em when they are NOT afk how ? 5 minutes is a loooooong time to use your scanner around the system aye ? enough time to see them on scan and move.
so if i have to be acutios scann al the time if he's there probing me and etc why shouldnt he be ? and remember it's actually more just a check if he's afk, as a simple warp of 1 AU means probes need repositioned before scanning further. ( same mechanic as normal probes first scan with 32 au then go down ) if he moves he cant be probed if he's afk he will die eventually.
i probably will spent 20-25 minutes to probe him but i'm wiling to do that. ( i supose at least 4 scans needed. to get 100% lock) does it seems unfair ? it'seems perfect.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.28 00:20:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 00:25:33
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 00:22:09
 Originally by: Zill
I love how the miners all complain about cloakers, yet they want to be in 00 where they can make good isk. Newsflash lads you DONT SOLO MINE IN 0.0. SO he's afk for 6 days, big deal it means he hasn't killed a soul. YAY FOR YOU! :).
Psychological warfare is a vital part in any fight. CCP should never nerf this tactic. No matter how hard the miners scream, you lot already killed highsec with the complaints that it too hard an GF were killing hulks lol.
If I had known hanging out in cloak has this bigger head game on you miner's I'd have done it sooner, this sounds like fun.
your mouth is too big for the little kills you have done. ( many of witch was shuttles ... yeeey for the man big pvp expert) you can barely fly an ishtar. i recomend you go back do some pvp then come back talking like a man.
Going back to serious busines, well if i drop a bubble and my budies camp it. that means there IS someone somewhere doing somthing actually playing right ? if an afk ckoaker is afk that means he is not doing anything but still affecting my game.
scripted play or afk play it's the same to me. exploit. should be banned or fixed.
real life snper if you want to call it like that sits without moving for days at a time, he withstands pain from not moving cold or hear hunger and thirst, and he dosent have an invincible cloak to shield him from enemy. infrered , thermal vision name it there are counters for the sniper. he has a risk. if he sleeps he might never wake up. he knows that when ge goes in. How's that compared to afk cloaker ?
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.28 01:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dragonmede
Here is an "AFK" Cloaker tactic. Camp a Gate or Station where you want to gather intel, Set-up an "out of game" spy program that records a screen image every 15-30 sec, and check data every day after downtime. Purpose: To observe activity in target system, recording the habits and routines of individuals, to establish patterns.
Known Habits and Patterns are used in the Hunt.
1) Do Not take the same route or travel to specific locations on a set schedule.
2) 0.0 is NOT YOUR HOME, at best it is a forward base camp. Nullsec is Hostile Space.
3) Even if I'm AFK, I'm still Watching and Waiting, and when I get the "Free Weapons" make no mistake "Diablo Ex Machina" will bring the Drama.
good that you admit that . And that tactic should be checked against eula if it is considered an exploit. A GM's opinion on that would be intresting.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.28 10:56:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 10:58:33
As long as you keep ignoring the main issue i will respond.
ability to cloak - yes
ability to do psiho warfare - yes
ability do do that while not playing actually - NO
your kills are an issue, killing pods and shuttles does not count as "leet" pvper that your post wants to give the impression.
Just as having an opinion against afk cloakers dosent make me a miner.
your kills do looks more like you are a gangker and griefer.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.29 11:12:00 -
[10]
most of you have valid points.
escorts are fine, be much more focused on what you are doing now that's fine also. denial tactics ... all is fine, i never said i have somthing about cloakers, and style of play , except posibility to afk
what you have not answered is how you see that it's balanced that 1 single man can trigger all that activity w/o actually playing ?
all i ask is that he wants to do denial of my activities and/or psiho warfare to be forced to actually be there and play. as it is now , take char in system put it in safespot and relog after dt.
that's not pvp it's pv'GUY WHO IS AFK' .
as i need to react to he's movements to be ready for him anytime it's only fair that he sould need to react to what i can do to him. ohwait ohnoes i cant do anything to him. even if he's there and afk.
you/we gank afk miners when you discover them... why not allow gank afk cloakers ?
whoever said 20 senonds lock time needs to go do homework again. you get 6 sec delay from cloak and cruiser sized hulls can lock cruisers and bs'es in at most 3 seconds. so with good skills tha's at ost 9 seconds. a smart cloaker that knows what he's doing will go to a safe spot off-grid decloak and warp to you -> no targeting delay. chances are you will not have scanned the sistem with directional at that particular time.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.29 11:23:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 29/12/2009 11:26:28
Please do tag along we allways like reds in local erm... as long as they fight .
Pos warfare is a little boring but hey pvp is pvp you are welcome :)
as to shoot that guy at station well. you saw him you could shoot. i cant see the cloaker i cant decide if to shoot or not. if i could only find him i could ask myself same question. i might engage him and only find out that he's not afk and have a covert cyno ready.
BUT that kind of options are denied to me.
LE: i find it funny that all the chest bashing people that want to pose as pvpers as oposed to the whining miners post with theri alts. 'Fraid a little ?
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.29 12:42:00 -
[12]
Well none of the arguments convinced me.
But i CAN see that at least judging from this thread ppl that support afk cloaking are more or at least more verbal.
So be it. I'll give it a rest.
Have fun in future battles after all that's all it matters.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.30 13:11:00 -
[13]
well someone finally got it right -> master of ceremony.
As far as the guy with 20 seconds delay for a covop in targeting ... well noob maybe ?
That explains ignoring cloaker in local ... well good for you, pro-tip keep doing that.
A covops has exactly 6 seconds delay ( 5 with t2 storyline cloak ) and another second for locking a bs. shoudnt be much more for bc/cruisers.
Yes it's paper thin ... but the time needed to lock him is more than enough to make a covert cyno. After that it's kind of game over. Oh are you noob enough to be needing an explain what that means ? i'd do it but you know i'm not here to educate anyone. At least not for free.
Point is if you want to be taken serious get your facts straight. mkay ?
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2010.01.03 08:51:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 03/01/2010 08:51:11
From the same wikipedia...
""Because of this threat the British decided to attack the Italian fleet at anchor during the famed Battle of Taranto. In this action, the British sank three Italian battleships, about half of the Italian Navy's battleship strength. Realising that Taranto harbour was no longer safe, the Italians relocated the undamaged ships to ports further away.""
So historically speaking afk'ing have been a dangerous tactic afker could allways be attacked ;) i only ask the same risk to be added to eve afk'ers :D
beside all afkers have a danger, except for those in station. 0.0 especially is dangerous. how can you ppl agree to simply drop a cloak on your ship and then be able to afk in any place in this universe no matter how hostile ?
i mean if you are in hostile place least you can do is pay attention to the game in order to survive.
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